Feb 9, 2024: Respect your customers privacy! | Siobhan Solberg

[00:00:00] Jim: Hey, Simon, welcome back.

[00:00:02] Simon: Jim, how are you?

[00:00:04] Jim: I'm, I'm doing okay. I'm doing okay. You know, you know, last night, Simon, uh, my son, he's, he's, uh, He's about, uh, 13. He's, he's going to be turning 14 here in a couple of weeks, not to release too much private data about

[00:00:19] Simon: Yeah. Yeah. Tell us more. How are his grades in

[00:00:23] Jim: but, uh, but you know, he was, he was in the house, he was throwing a ball in the house.

[00:00:27] Jim: I've told him a million times not to do this. Right. And, uh, of course he had a picture frame, the glass shattered. And I said, that's why we can't have nice things. And, you know, I've probably said this to my kids like dozens of times over the years. And I started thinking, you know, we could say the same thing about marketers in our industry.

[00:00:48] Jim: Right? Oh, marketers. They're the reason we can't have nice things like cookies,

[00:00:52] Simon: playing with the cookies inside

[00:00:54] Jim: right? You know,

[00:00:55] Simon: Why do you have a deterministic ID in the hallway?

[00:00:57] Jim: I know, right? Like they had to go and be so [00:01:00] creepy and target their marketing to us and eventually things like privacy regulations and cookie consent banners and iOS restrictions and third party Cookie deprecations have to come along and just ruin the party.

[00:01:12] Jim: But you know, Simon, not all marketers are data greedy. Some actually care about privacy, believe it or not.

[00:01:20] Simon: Yeah. Well, I know I feel that I see it, but also I think we do a little bit of lip service to that when we are saying, yeah, we care about privacy, but then we also keep doing what we keep doing. So, I don't know, I'm, I'm a little sour or maybe I'm a little cynical on the idea, but yeah, I agree there we have virtues that we are angling towards as an industry.

[00:01:39] Jim: We do. And there are those of us that really do care and try to champion privacy. And we have an exemplar of privacy and marketing with us today on the show. Siobhan Solberg is an accomplished classically trained musician. You didn't think I was going to go there first. Um, she has taught music focusing on violin and viola, and then somewhere [00:02:00] along the way, which I'm sure we'll hear about, she, uh, got hooked on marketing and data where she eventually.

[00:02:05] Jim: Founded Raise Marketing specializing in the measurement and optimization of marketing data with a twist. Uh, she prioritizes privacy, which among marketers certainly makes her stand out from the crowd. She's also the host of the marketing unfucked podcast, the only podcast to help unfuck your marketing and run a business that gives a shit.

[00:02:25] Jim: And yes, I will be recording a, uh, a little, little thing at the beginning to let people know if they're in their car with kids, you know, To shut it off. So they'll know that before they get to this point. Um, but yes,

[00:02:37] Simon: let's not beat it. Let's not kid ourselves. I'll just say anyone who's listened to this with kids in the car, the kids have already said, turn it off. This, I, I'm sick of talking about measurement.

[00:02:46] Jim: yeah.

[00:02:47] Simon: the most boring con. Yeah. My kids give me like two minutes. They see me on the TV on YouTube and they go, ah, and then they're like, this is incredibly boring stuff.

[00:02:55] Simon: I'm like, it's not, it's cool. And you'll like it one day. But anyway, yes, you're right. Sorry. Siobhan, Siobhan's[00:03:00] 

[00:03:00] Jim: this is new holds barred, uh, explicit content in this, uh, in this episode. So, uh, you know, Siobhan also has a newsletter called redacted where she covers marketing and privacy, and she's currently working on her advanced masters of laws and privacy, cybersecurity and data management. Welcome to the measure up podcast, Siobhan,

[00:03:18] Siobhan: that's a hell of an intro. Thanks, Jim and Simon.

[00:03:22] Jim: you know, we,

[00:03:23] Simon: Yeah, no, Jim is the, yeah, I was gonna say Jim's the greatest person at writing these intros because he did used to write, uh, for the funeral section of the newspaper, uh, as we've, as we've covered on a previous episode. So he's great at eulogizing folks if anyone is, uh, if anyone's looking to outsource that.

[00:03:39] Simon: But anyway, yes, welcome Siobhan!

[00:03:42] Siobhan: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me, guys.

[00:03:44] Jim: Absolutely. This is a, this is a pleasure on our side to, to get to talk to you finally about a really, you know, a topic that's just been. More and more important. I feel like over the past few years and it's only getting more important as we go on. But then, you know, the main theme for our episode today is [00:04:00] privacy and marketing.

[00:04:01] Jim: But before we kind of get into the meat of the episode, maybe you can give us a little bit of history about how you got to where you are today and the kind of work that you're doing at Ray's Marketing.

[00:04:11] Siobhan: Yeah, I mean, just to sum it up really quickly, like you said, I used to be a classical musician. I started geeking out over data a little bit, mostly football stats. Um, that would be soccer for the Americans. Um, so I had to learn, you know, our studio and all these fun things. Um,

[00:04:26] Simon: Sorry, really quick, did you see Kevin De Bruyne when he was negotiating his latest contract with Man City? His whole thing was just leaning into the analytics, he didn't even have an agent, he had an analyst. He went into the room with an analyst, I was like, that's brilliant, I love that. Sorry, just leaning into that because I love sports stats too.

[00:04:42] Siobhan: for measurement right there now.

[00:04:44] Simon: Absolutely. Yeah. A lawyer and a statistician, that's all you need.

[00:04:50] Siobhan: Um, so yeah, I kind of got into, you know, our programming and statistics and all this fun stuff. And I moved country and found a job, [00:05:00] uh, at a media agency, which allowed me to, you know, when you're really lucky and you get those jobs, I get to You get to form the job, it's not they have a job, it's just you kind of go in, they want you to work for them and you just get to design your own job.

[00:05:14] Siobhan: So I designed my own job and it was sort of along the lines of optimization, measurement, business intelligence, as I felt. Um, which eventually led to me leading the BI team, the optimization team. Um, and I stuck around there for a while, learned a lot, really enjoyed it, and then went freelance. Um, and opened the agency, the agency really focused on measurement marketing because optimization is all great and dandy, but you really can't do that without clean data.

[00:05:44] Siobhan: And that was lacking more than anything. And I sort of got sick of telling people, okay, no, we cannot test everything on your site. You don't even have clean or reliable data. So I just. I was focused mostly on that and, um, yeah, and as you can imagine, in [00:06:00] 2018, a lot of questions came about, about GDPR, how, what do we do with our data, what don't we do with our data, what are we allowed to do, is the law coming getting us, et cetera.

[00:06:09] Siobhan: So, um, I really got curious about that and that's kind of, that curiosity has increased significantly. Um. Um, as you can imagine, and that's really the biggest part that I focus on now. I haven't done a proper measurement project in probably a year or two and I'm just like full on. I come in, you know, to the analytics team of a company and help them with the privacy bit of things, which is really the best of both worlds because I still understand both worlds.

[00:06:38] Siobhan: I'm saying still because I might lose touch with measurement at some point. I hope not. But, um, so it's, it's been a lot of fun and it's been a hell of a journey.

[00:06:47] Jim: So I'm curious there. I feel like there might be, maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but there's like two types of. We'll say marketers, um, there are the ones who see all this, all of [00:07:00] these issues with, with privacy regulations and GDPR and, and stuff that Apple is doing with iOS, you know, app tracking transparency and ATP and all the ITP and all that stuff.

[00:07:11] Jim: And, you know, one type of marketer says, you know, what? We could get around that limitation of the user cookie expiring after seven days if we just switch to server side tracking, or we can get around this limitation by doing this. We can work around it this way, right? That's the kind of one type of marketer who's like, you'll pry this data out of my cold, dead hands.

[00:07:34] Jim: And then there's the, the, the type of marketer, which I think Feel is probably a lot less common, which I feel like you kind of went this way, which is there's a reason these things are happening. There's a reason privacy regulation is. Coming into being, there's a reason why Apple is taking all these stances on, on privacy as their core belief.

[00:07:55] Jim: It's because people don't want it. And so like you've taken the [00:08:00] customer centric focus, which is, I feel like I said, it's less common. So I'm wondering, what do you think it is that you kind of gravitated more towards the let's do what's right by our customers versus the pry the data out of my cold dead hands track.

[00:08:15] Siobhan: Yeah, I think I've always been a little bit like that, even before privacy became the talk of the town. So I've always been someone who's focused a lot on sustainability and respecting our users. For me, it was always about respect. It was just, you know, have some respect. And I think as you know, being a marketer, Of any type, you're going to interact a lot with those who just want all the data.

[00:08:37] Siobhan: And you know how it was in the 90s and early 2000s. We were so greedy, we were doing anything we could, and people were just having fun with all the data. And no one really thought about the consequences. And then once the consequences became clear, it was very clear to me that, wait a second, Like, I also had fun with that data.

[00:08:56] Siobhan: I hadn't thought a step ahead, but now that I understand [00:09:00] the consequences, I really didn't want to have to have anything to do with that. Um, and I also was always one of those measurement marketers that very much believed. You know, pre privacy to say like only collect what you can actually work with, what you can action on, what you can make decisions on.

[00:09:16] Siobhan: So, and there are various reasons to do that other than privacy. There is a sustainability factor. There's the fact that your brain will be clearer, that you can actually make decisions when you're only collecting what you're going to make decisions on, you know, that you have a cleaner, more reliable set of data.

[00:09:32] Siobhan: There were various other reasons for that. So how I actually got there, not a clear like aha moment. It's just, I think my personality suits that. Um, and, uh, and I truly believe that as a person. So I think it's quite easy for me to be in that direction. I don't think I could do the other one.

[00:09:54] Simon: For what it's worth, I always like to do the, um, the my mother test, and that is, I know a lot about the internet and protecting [00:10:00] myself out there online and sort of ways to mitigate IDs being persistent and so forth, but I don't know if my mother would, and I always think about the ways in which she would be tracked if I was doing, and I was like, look, this is the average common user, would I appreciate it if this happened to my mother?

[00:10:14] Simon: And oftentimes I'll come back and be like, no, I wouldn't. So I'm okay with these things. And I think that maybe is also part of the challenge here when you talk about the sort of, So, I don't know, the, not, not anticipating the consequences, it's because we're also a group of just very involved smart people in this industry who know how to protect ourselves, but you know, and, and so you're like, everyone knows how to block cookies if they need to.

[00:10:34] Simon: I'm like, I don't think they do. I think the, the, the average user, you tell them like, go, go turn off your, your third party cookies in Chrome right now. They're like, I don't know how to do that. Uh, and then they'll just refresh the screen or something and that'll be that.

[00:10:47] Siobhan: No, I think it's definitely a thing. And you know, when I do workshops and stuff, one of the things I always say, would you want that to happen to yourself?

[00:10:55] Simon: Exactly.

[00:10:56] Siobhan: And, and the moment you flip that script around, people are just like, [00:11:00] wait a second. No. You know, because how many marketers do you know, especially measurement marketers of ad blockers, they're, you know, clearing their cookies and making sure nothing's happening.

[00:11:09] Siobhan: They're checking everything. And why do we do that? Because we know what we're doing to others or each other and they're the first ones to shut it off. So if you're not cool with that happening to yourself, why would you do that to somebody else?

[00:11:24] Simon: Right. It's like a, it's like a tobacco executive that doesn't smoke. You're like, yo, like, you know, if you were a smoker and you loved your product, I'd be like, alright, okay. You're fine with what you're doing yourself, but most of them don't smoke. They, uh, you know, they're athletes and whatnot, so it's, it's interesting.

[00:11:40] Simon: Uh, but, but there is such a,

[00:11:44] Jim: to, uh, tobacco executives, you heard it

[00:11:46] Simon: I mean, look, I don't think, I don't think that's too much of a stretch at times, right? I think that there is a degree of how we are very disingenuous in terms of how we operate, um, but maybe not to go

[00:11:59] Jim: think part of [00:12:00] it.

[00:12:00] Simon: side of things. Maybe we, yeah,

[00:12:02] Jim: no, go ahead.

[00:12:03] Simon: you go, Jim.

[00:12:04] Jim: I was going to say, I think part of it is like a lot of times we just, we're, we're, we're so much in our own bubble that we need to get outside of it. Like every time I hear about like. A CPG brand talking about how do we get people to care about our cider? Like, you know, your, your toilet paper site, no one's gone to it to learn more about your toilet paper or to connect with your brand.

[00:12:28] Jim: I mean, I mean, I know the Charmin bears are cute and all, but like, come on, like,

[00:12:32] Simon: I was gonna say, Shaman, I feel like I'm connected to that brand. Um, no,

[00:12:36] Jim: example, but you know, like,

[00:12:39] Simon: Heh. Look, I think Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park said it best when he said, uh, we were so obsessed over whether we could, uh, we didn't think, you know, we should, if we should. Uh, I probably just completely butchered that quote, but the, but I think it does stand and, and that is sort of what has given rise, and I'm going to use a term that I don't like, but it's a, it's a good setup for a conversation that we're about to have, and that is the [00:13:00] cookie less future.

[00:13:01] Simon: So, Siobhan, Cookieless Future, Cookiepocalypse, these are all trigger words I'm sure. Um, how, what, why, what, tell us about what that means, uh, it's everywhere. All marketers here, Cookieless Future right now. What, what does it mean? What does it mean to you?

[00:13:17] Siobhan: Yeah, I mean, I'm ready to run now, right? It's, uh, this cookie list stuff. It's, I mean, I get it. As marketers, we wanna give a term to everything. So these are good terms to give to something as somebo, as a marketer who understands privacy and understands data, it's not even just about cookies. Let's get over it.

[00:13:36] Simon: Mm hmm,

[00:13:38] Siobhan: it's just frustration, right? It's just frustration that a lot of people who know better are still stuck on using these words and making it popular. Um, but hey, we also need to market the cause. And if you're going to call it cookie less future or cookie whatever you want, then let it be that.

[00:13:56] Siobhan: Um, and it's become so common now [00:14:00] that everyone understands it. So therefore, I, you'll catch me using it as well. Although I usually put like a little star next to it, and then on the bottom right, Ah, that doesn't just include cookies, it also includes And

[00:14:13] Simon: so, you know what really frustrates me about that term though? is when I was a little kid, I was in the car with my parents and there were these ads on TV. I grew up in New Zealand, ads on TV saying, don't drink and drive. And as a little kid, you hear that and you go, don't drink and drive. So one day I get in the car and my dad's sitting there with a, with a can of Diet Coke.

[00:14:32] Simon: And he's drinking it while he's driving down the road. I'm like, dad, what are you doing? Don't drink and drive. And he just laughs, right? Because it's a can of Diet Coke. He's like, I don't mean drink and drive in that way. It's a whole thing. And I didn't really understand. And I feel like that's what we're doing, though.

[00:14:46] Simon: When we say cookieless future, we are bastardizing all cookies. Every cookie that has ever existed is now bastardized under this term, and this idea that all cookies are bad. How do you differentiate that to folks, though? To help them understand?[00:15:00] 

[00:15:00] Siobhan: Yeah, I think that's really important, and I'm glad you brought that up. It's ultimately, it's easy for us to explain it to each other, right? We all know what first, second, third, zero party, whatever everyone wants to call them now, everyone knows what it roughly means. I think, ultimately, what I explain to my friends who are, let's say, lawyers, like IP lawyers or something, not having anything to do with privacy, um Will be something along the way you need cookies to make the site work. They're essentially good cookies You have cookies also to let's see Understand what's going on on your site in a more anonymous way They're good cookies if you are okay with them. And then there are the kind of cookies that go to another party, like Facebook, like Google, etc. And they're also okay if you're okay with them.

[00:15:45] Siobhan: And I think when I explained that to them like that, they're just like, what do you mean we need cookies to make the site work? I said, well, without cookies, you don't have websites. You don't have the internet per se and the moment that becomes clear, they start understanding [00:16:00] that the problem isn't cookies.

[00:16:01] Siobhan: The problem is sending that information to somebody else, right? So the moment they understand a cookie is just a. And there's a way of saying there's some information that's being collected, And being sent somewhere. Then it becomes easier. But that's the point. You know, this is why this thing with cookie lists is so vague, It doesn't actually cover all the problems, or all the concerns in terms of compliance, So it doesn't help there.

[00:16:32] Siobhan: And it makes everyone freak out the moment that they hear cookies anything. So I mean how often do you hear developers now, When they're around anybody else. They don't mention cookies. Because they're just like, they're just scared to say that, because if they say that to the wrong stakeholder, that stakeholder's like, no, no, no, no cookies.

[00:16:50] Siobhan: And then the developer's sitting there like, well, I need them.

[00:16:53] Jim: Like straight from the CEO, remove all cookies from our website. We can't have any more cookies. They [00:17:00] heard cookie list. No

[00:17:02] Simon: joke, I would bet that there is a Jira ticket somewhere that has a request to remove all cookies from our website And there's some poor dev sitting there going. I'm gonna crash the website. I don't know what to do at this moment in time Remove the hull from the ship. Yeah Alright Exactly

[00:17:22] Jim: our website. I heard something. He said, we're not allowed to use HTML anymore.

[00:17:28] Siobhan: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing. It's, it's, but it becomes, isn't it always like that? It's with everything, right? There are always ways to simplify things. And, and as a society, we like to simplify things. This is what we do. Right? You said drink and drive. There's so many things. You simplify everything.

[00:17:46] Siobhan: Eat healthy. Don't eat healthy. You know, it's simplified again. It's Everything's simplified because they think it makes it more accessible. And ultimately it just makes the job harder for those who are dealing with it. A nutritionist trying to suddenly explain what healthy and not healthy means [00:18:00] is a lot harder for them when you have these concepts that society has given you.

[00:18:03] Siobhan: And the same thing with cookies. But, I have I don't like the word, I don't like the cookie less aspect of things, but I've also sort of given up on trying to, uh, you know, fight that battle, because it's not a battle I'm ever going to win. And it's not a battle worth fighting, because ultimately, the reason I come in is to explain that there are other cookies.

[00:18:25] Siobhan: And when I talk to people that are not at all associated with internet or anything, including my husband, right, he works in corporate, in a corporate office, I explain it to him in layman's terms, and he quite understands now what's funny. Okay. And what cookies are not, but in his mind, he just thinks of, he thinks cookies are only third party cookies.

[00:18:46] Simon: Mm

[00:18:46] Siobhan: So this is the way he has adjusted it in his head. That's also a way to go about it.

[00:18:51] Jim: So, so even like bad term aside, even if it was more accurate and it was the third party cookie list future, that was the [00:19:00] phrase that caught on for some reason. Like, okay, yes, it's more accurate. But the thing that bothers me is that we've been living in this future for a long time. Sure, Chrome is dragging its feet, but like every other major browser has already deprecated third party cookies by default.

[00:19:17] Jim: Um, and now all of a sudden Chrome, if they actually do you. You know, follow through with their plans this year, like they are supposed to. Now they're going to be third party cookie party cookie lists. Um, and that's already started being rolled out right at like a 1 percent level. the amount of attention and fear that this has driven, I feel is disproportionate to the actual effect that's going to be had because like, okay, it's yes, Chrome has dominant market share in terms of browsers, but we've already been, this has already been in effect for.

[00:19:53] Jim: Portion of our users. So like, what is the actual effect? What is, what is this upcoming deprecation in [00:20:00] Chrome of third party cookies mean for marketers? Like what are actual marketers going to see here?

[00:20:05] Siobhan: Yeah. I mean, it's funny cause you've got me like right there where I'm going to start ranting about lazy marketers. Um, you know, but it's one of those things. It's just, I feel that. Um, digital marketing specifically have become something that everyone has gotten into and everyone has realized it's just you can be super lazy and just be like, Oh yeah, Facebook, please optimize my campaigns, Google, please optimize my campaigns, do this.

[00:20:28] Siobhan: And of course they're all scared. They have no idea how it works. They have no idea how to actually optimize something. They have no idea. What marketing is they don't understand the foundations of marketing it's become like the lazy discipline now grand not everyone But a lot of people and they're scared They're scared because suddenly their job is becoming a job.

[00:20:48] Siobhan: Suddenly. Their job is not monitoring campaigns on Facebook Suddenly their job is wait, how can we do this and in their mind? They don't think it's possible but you and me and everyone has [00:21:00] seen plenty of campaigns and That you can optimize on an aggregate and groups, et cetera, that work just fine. You know, contextual marketing also works fine.

[00:21:10] Siobhan: There are so many other ways to do things that I think There are just so many out there right now who don't, they weren't around 10, 20 years ago when we were all doing this in different ways. And when we had different ideas of marketing. So yeah, they're all freaking out, but let them freak out. Let them go learn a little bit, figure it out.

[00:21:37] Siobhan: Ultimately, I love a challenge. So for me, I'm like, yeah, let's do this. Come on, let's figure out how to do this. You know, I'm all excited. Granted, there are people who aren't like that, but I think they're freaking out because they think it's a threat to their job. But what they really should be thinking is this isn't a threat to my job.

[00:21:54] Siobhan: This is a chance for me to actually start thinking about how to do this better and differently and [00:22:00] cement my job, right? So I say embrace the challenge, but granted, not everyone's going to, and we're going to scream and we're not going to see every little granular bit of data, but every time someone says that to me and says, Oh, but I can't see, you know, who bought this and what exactly was done here?

[00:22:19] Siobhan: And I'm like, yeah. And what did you do with that information? And that's the point. It was just building a pretty dashboard. It was no doing with that information. So I would challenge every marketer that's so scared about this to look at the data you're going to be getting. And see if you can do something with every bit of data, because even then it's going to be too much.

[00:22:40] Siobhan: So, I think it's just a smokescreen.

[00:22:46] Jim: Yeah. And a lot of the go ahead, Simon.

[00:22:48] Simon: Sorry, Jim. I was just going to lean in and say, I do think there are some marketers out there that absolutely are fearful for their jobs and everything, but I also think there is a group of folks who perhaps know [00:23:00] what's going on, but they are playing into the fair uncertainty and doubt here because they see that as the opportunity, uh, and for what it's worth, Google comes out and they talk about PMAX and I've been on calls with, with, with clients where they've said, what does an agency even do anymore if PMAX exists?

[00:23:16] Simon: And I'm like, there's so much more to it than that, but I, I understand where you're coming from because you've been trained in this mindset of, it's all just push button and go. And so perhaps to some degree, there are some folks out there that look at this as like an opportunity to reclaim that ground.

[00:23:27] Simon: Um, so I guess what I'm getting at is it's interesting how many factions do exist around this that are all singing the same song, but I think it's for different means and different outcomes. Yeah!

[00:23:38] Siobhan: essentially, I mean, you know.

[00:23:40] Simon: In a way, yeah,

[00:23:41] Siobhan: a way, I mean, it's a little messed up, but at the same time, they're protecting their own role, right?

[00:23:47] Simon: Right.

[00:23:47] Siobhan: I think there are a lot of people who realize that you can do so much more and there is so much more to marketing anything than, you know, the data, but I do think that to be there, you have to have had some [00:24:00] sort of foundation.

[00:24:01] Siobhan: So, um, or you have had to come in to digital marketing and enjoy the, the, the heyday it had where you could just, everyone could get into it if you knew how to use a computer and then learn on the job. And now guess what? You're going to learn on the job again. So embrace it. Um. You're stuck with it. Like, you don't have a choice. People argue with me all the time. Like, you don't have a choice. This is going to happen. This has been happening. You can keep on fighting it and you can scream about it as much as you want and you can have your temper tantrum. I don't care. It's gonna happen.

[00:24:33] Simon: That line of thought, by the way, reminds me of an episode we did with Dana Di Tommaso, where she was talking about GA4. She's like, GA4, you're stuck with it now! Uh, and I was like, that's a great tagline! Just embrace the suck!

[00:24:45] Jim: Yes. What I wonder if we're like, the older I get, the more I see that everything is cyclical, right? And so like you were mentioning, like in the beginning we just had to figure things out. We got, we had a computer, we knew how to use it. We got into the [00:25:00] job and we learned as we went. And then at some point we got all got lazy because like.

[00:25:04] Jim: P max and advantage plus, and now we're kind of back at the square one. It's like, Oh shit, we have to learn this stuff again and learn how things work. And, and I wonder what the next wave of that cycle will be like, what's the next thing that's going to get us lazy? Is it going to be whatever Google comes up with for privacy sandbox or is it?

[00:25:25] Jim: You know, like what, what is it that it's going to be that next thing that is like, Oh, this doesn't for us now

[00:25:32] Siobhan: you know we were talking all theoretical before but the truth of the matter is people are still gonna be lazy because whatever Google just came up with with their privacy thing. Sandbox is, I don't know. I'm going to be nice now. It's questionable.

[00:25:45] Simon: Oh, I was gonna say, don't be nice. I am, I am incredibly skeptical of it. It's, it's a monopolistic, uh, uh, uh, approach to domineering the future of the internet. And it's something that we all need to be incredibly mindful of. It's like, it's shrouded in this, it's, it's a great privacy [00:26:00] play. I'm like, it's not.

[00:26:01] Simon: It is a destructive privacy play.

[00:26:03] Siobhan: Yeah. And I think, you know, uh, topics are what used to be federated learning cohorts, uh,

[00:26:10] Jim: walk to topics. And yeah,

[00:26:13] Siobhan: you know, and

[00:26:14] Simon: Fledge is something too.

[00:26:15] Siobhan: yeah, I'm sorry. It's all still just a bunch of. They're still collecting a bunch of stuff. It's just that you don't get to see it anymore, know, that's all it is, right? So what have they really done?

[00:26:27] Siobhan: They have taken away your control and they haven't actually respected the fact that you might not want to be tracked. You know, and then you throw in you have to have Google consent mode and everyone goes for v2 because that says it's right and Then you go advanced consent mode because that must be the better one and suddenly Google's got everything they want, right?

[00:26:45] Siobhan: So

[00:26:45] Simon: cookie less pings. Mm. Mm.

[00:26:50] Siobhan: So, ultimately, it's all theoretical, like, in the end, as long as you follow Google around, you will be just fine. Um, but I think that's what scares me the [00:27:00] most, right? Do I think they can pull it off forever? No. I mean, eventually, we're going to have to not get lazy. Or we're going to have to think about different ways to do it. But then there's part of me that really hopes that there is a way to do this in a privacy friendly way, with, you know, differential privacy and encryption, et cetera, where we can actually move into Still having the comforts and the ease of advertising and retargeting and analytics and, and measurement now and still respect everyone else's privacy. Because why not, if we can have both? But we don't have that solution yet.

[00:27:37] Simon: You just mentioned a really interesting word. Differential privacy. What does that really mean? What's involved with that?

[00:27:44] Siobhan: Well, it's a complex process, but essentially what you're doing is just throwing in a bunch of noise.

[00:27:49] Simon: Okay. Okay. There are things that I've read about it and I'm trying to understand it as well as I go through it. So, like, I [00:28:00] don't know, I'm trying to deconstruct it into a more simplistic term, uh, but maybe it's too complicated to try and, it's like, uh, you know, atomic, uh, energy, uh, creation. You're like, look, this is as basic as I can go, it's still gonna have to be atomic energy science.

[00:28:14] Siobhan: Yeah, no, I mean, ultimately, right, it's just a way of adding noise to a data set to the point where you cannot individually recognize anything. It's reversible. If you don't do it right, you have to have a huge amount of data to be able to do it right. You know, there are so many ifs and buts and maybes because we all know that the smaller the data set, the easier it is to actually figure out what's going on in reverse engineer things.

[00:28:38] Siobhan: But this is how I explain it to people when they ask what is differential privacy, if it's just So, you know, someone who wants to understand what the term mean, it just means adding noise to the data set so that we can protect the individual user's data and still be able to analyze it. Um, there's obviously a lot more to it.

[00:28:54] Siobhan: Um, but that's what Google is playing with now. That's one of the things they're playing with.[00:29:00] 

[00:29:01] Jim: you mentioned, um, when we were talking about like the, the, all the different privacy sandbox and things that Google, like you were saying, maybe we can get to a, uh, Point where, okay, we can have some differential privacy or some fledge or flock or topics or something that works that allows us to do kind of targeted marketing, but only if it's privacy centric and the user is okay with it.

[00:29:26] Jim: I kind of personally question if that's even possible or if those things are just always like going to be exclusive, uh, you know, not mutually exclusive. Right. But. Kind of stepping, stepping back, uh, and thinking about it from a higher level, kind of from the theoretical perspective. What is it about privacy that can benefit marketers?

[00:29:52] Jim: I know this is something that you do a lot where you, you don't look at privacy as, as like something that's like against you, but you look at it as [00:30:00] something that is working for you and, and you can make it work for you. So I wonder, like, just talk a little bit about how you think, you know, privacy can benefit marketers, uh, if they

[00:30:09] Siobhan: I think that

[00:30:10] Jim: it.

[00:30:11] Siobhan: ties together really well, because what you were saying is, I don't think that that necessarily would work, right, that you can have this comfort, but ultimately, if you have a user's consent, you're allowed to track them, and then it does work. And this is where you say, how can privacy benefit the marketer?

[00:30:28] Siobhan: Because I will always go on about this and everyone that's heard me speak or heard, seen me write, they always hear this from me. It comes down to respecting your users. The people that you are communicating with at the other end of the screen. And if that user has interest in your brand or wants to hear about you more, wants to know that you're having a sale by throwing an ad at them, etc.

[00:30:50] Siobhan: They're going to consent. Once you have their trust, they're going to consent to you tracking them. And then you do get to do what you want to do. No [00:31:00] one's stopping you then, right, because you've asked and you've gotten that consent. And ultimately, from a brand perspective, that trust and waiting for that consent, it means that you're now targeting a set of users that are actually interested. You can, I mean, we don't have to talk about how beneficial that is down the line. It's really hard, you know, to constantly target a completely non aware, non-interest group, interested group. The moment you target a, an aware group or an interest group or an engaged group, you know exactly what's going to happen. So that's the biggest overall benefit. But go ahead, Jim. I'm, I'm interrupting you.

[00:31:36] Jim: Yeah, no, I was just, the thought just kind of popped into my mind. There's like, there's consent, but then there's next level consent. I don't have a word for it. Simon probably has a great analogy for this, but it was

[00:31:49] Simon: maybe.

[00:31:50] Jim: Oh, I want 10 percent off my next order. Sure. I quote unquote consent, right? Because I gave you my email address because I want 10 percent off and I'm going to order today.

[00:31:59] Jim: And I'm never going to come back to [00:32:00] this website ever again. Or there's the, I love this brand so much. I want to hear everything they have to say. I want their marketing emails. I want their updates. I want their sales. I'm a loyal customer of this brand. I'm an Apple fan boy, whatever it might be. Right.

[00:32:15] Jim: There's like the, that level of consent. I mean, I really do want to hear from you kind of consent and maybe, maybe I'm just like artificially differentiating between those two levels, but I feel like there's a lot of people consent because they want the 10 percent off, but is that really consent or they're just, They just want the discount,

[00:32:34] Siobhan: Yeah, I mean, I think we have to be careful with the word consent,

[00:32:37] Jim: IP

[00:32:38] Siobhan: Because you're talking from an American perspective, and I have to remember that because you're opt out. But consent, for example, in Europe. It's opt in. You cannot track a user, analytics, et cetera, retargeting, advertising, unless they have given you the consent to track them.

[00:32:54] Siobhan: That's step one in my world, right? The fact that you're going to get 10 percent [00:33:00] off for an email, that can be done regardless. That's a whole different thing, right? That's you trying to get what a lot of us like to call zero party data, right? You're trying to get that data and fill it in by yourself. Yes, of course, a lot of people will say I'll do it for a 10 percent coupon, then they'll bounce.

[00:33:17] Siobhan: And the people who do that, they usually use a fake email or, you know, uh, an email that's a throwaway and let them. And then there are those who, when you have the next step of questions, when are you getting married next? When is your anniversary? When is this birthday? And they fill all that information in.

[00:33:32] Siobhan: And by, due to that engagement, you immediately know that they're more interested. Of course, you're going to have to segment those users out, but especially if you're an opt in. out country, right? So in the U. S., you're still tracking their behaviors. By their behaviors, you can pretty much figure out which consent they gave you and then segment them accordingly.

[00:33:50] Siobhan: So, this, in America, it's still a lot easier

[00:33:54] Simon: Mm hm.

[00:33:55] Siobhan: compared to, let's say, if you're targeting your Europeans, right? Um, or the European [00:34:00] continent, continent. Yeah, I suppose that sounds right. Um, so, um, I don't see that there's a problem with it. And I think all three of us know that if you're just a little clever with your measurement, we can very quickly segment those people out.

[00:34:18] Siobhan: Um, and understand who are fully engaged and not engaged people are. And then go for it. And, and I would actually counter that also with saying, if they gave you your email for your 10 percent off, what's the problem with that? You're also giving an easy way to unsubscribe. So why

[00:34:37] Simon: I'm not a,

[00:34:37] Siobhan: there a problem?

[00:34:39] Simon: I'm not a lawyer, um, but isn't that illegal under GDPR? Uh, like, there's not, you're not allowed to have an exchange of value associated with providing consent because the offer needs to be available to everyone regardless of consent status.

[00:34:53] Siobhan: Yes, but we're talking about consent consent. Like we're talking about [00:35:00] consent to track, so I cannot put a

[00:35:02] Simon: The nuance

[00:35:02] Siobhan: up that says you need to accept personalization cookies, retargeting cookies, and analytics cookies, otherwise you can't use this site. That's not allowed. Um, although, well, it's not allowed.

[00:35:16] Siobhan: Let's just leave it at that. Um, and then, you know, so you can't ever make it like, You can't make it a choice. The choice is you don't or you do and I still get to use the website. But there are obviously scenarios currently with what Facebook did and various other people did with you know Or some newspapers are doing with you pay and we don't track you or you don't pay and you need to consent to seeing all The ads etc and be tracked.

[00:35:42] Siobhan: Is that legal or not? That's still debatable. I'm on the no page, but You know,

[00:35:49] Simon: It, it, but it, it raises a very interesting question though. And that is, is this sort of maybe the Um, the darker side or the, the, the unintended consequence of increased privacy is, [00:36:00] is that, you know, folks will always try to find loopholes and earlier Jim was referencing like, well, what comes next? And I think that's sort of one of these trends that we always see, which is like, yeah, okay, you get rid of third party cookies or you require consent at all times, but what comes next?

[00:36:12] Simon: And that's always worse often and more intrusive and crazier. Um, where did,

[00:36:18] Jim: addresses. Yeah.

[00:36:20] Siobhan: If we see it now, I mean, how often are you getting calls from people in Europe saying, Oh, you know what? Come on, just set up server side and avoid everything.

[00:36:27] Simon: is that

[00:36:28] Siobhan: know how often I get calls like that all the time? I still do, and I don't even do implementation anymore.

[00:36:32] Simon: Really?

[00:36:33] Siobhan: Set up everything server side, because that's what they think.

[00:36:35] Siobhan: They think that's how it works, okay? So number one is they don't understand. But number two is, oh, just do the server side thing, and then we can just collect everything anyway, and no one will know.

[00:36:45] Simon: Yeah. Oh my God. It's like walking into a store and being like, you should steal some candy bars. And you're like, I'm not going to do that. And then you're like, okay, we'll go back at night and take the candy bars. Cause then they won't see you.

[00:36:54] Jim: Laughter.

[00:36:55] Simon: I'm like, uh, still taking this candy bars. It doesn't matter if they [00:37:00] see me or not.

[00:37:01] Simon: Uh,

[00:37:04] Siobhan: I'm not dissing server side here. You know, there are people who do it completely respectfully and right. I'm just saying that this is what happens. People are trying to find loopholes, but ultimately those loopholes are coming from those people who are not willing to step ahead and instead are stick, staying in the past and trying to make fixes and, and, and just don't wanna change themselves.

[00:37:23] Siobhan: And you know what happens if you're not willing to change, you're going to sink. So let them try right? Ultimately, we just need to push forward. But, It's always going to happen, no matter what. We're always looking for loopholes.

[00:37:40] Simon: Yeah. Well, and I guess, speaking of loopholes and, you know, the, everything Google's doing, there are other alternatives out there. There are, uh, unified ID 2. 0. What are you, what's the reality of these alternatives in terms of, I guess, viability and accessibility? Are they real? Is UID, UID 2. 0 going to be, I guess, [00:38:00] the next viable thing?

[00:38:02] Siobhan: I'm doubtful.

[00:38:04] Simon: Okay.

[00:38:05] Siobhan: Um, But I don't know enough to have a solid opinion. Uh, is my short answer.

[00:38:11] Simon: Hmm.

[00:38:11] Siobhan: I, um, There are alternatives. None of them are convincing at this point in time. Let's put it that way. But I think that things are changing so quickly right now that it's just a matter of time. I'm actually not saying there won't be.

[00:38:31] Siobhan: I think that there are going to, there's going to be a lot of exploration, there is already a lot of exploration with how to do everything. Um, especially in Europe, obviously, because of the nature of what's going on here compared to the States. And um, I think it's just a matter of time and it's going to happen sooner than later. Yeah.

[00:38:51] Simon: It's a, it's a, it's a very interesting avenue, uh, when we think about, uh, just deterministic IDs in general and what that future looks like. And when [00:39:00] I use that, when I'm thinking about UID 2. 0, um, versus more, uh, What does Tim Wilson call it? The fetishization of deterministic identity. He has good

[00:39:11] Siobhan: him. He

[00:39:12] Simon: Oh, he's

[00:39:13] Siobhan: words.

[00:39:15] Simon: But we are still so attracted to that idea. Is there a viable alternative, though, to this? Maybe as we think about, sort of, I know we're talking about, like, topics and contextual, but there's sort of, is there a middle ground here, which is maybe more like a modeled identity component?

[00:39:29] Siobhan: Yeah, I mean, I think the hard thing here is that any ID, okay, top six maybe not, but it's still, especially within the Google Hub, it's still identifiable to an individual. And that's what becomes a problem, right? So, because of the nature of where it's going, it doesn't matter how aggregated it is on our side.

[00:39:51] Siobhan: They have way too much information for it ever to not be an individual ID of some sort, no matter what they say. They're saying topics, it's just a group based on [00:40:00] topics, etc. But on the Google side, they know exactly who's who. Even if they say they don't, you know, but we know that already. So, um, this is where I'm saying I don't see it happening.

[00:40:13] Siobhan: I, I see a problem with everything that they're coming up with. Having said that, I'm also looking for a problem because I want to understand what it's about. You know, I'm also trying to look at the positives. So, um, But I think as long as we're having that discussion, as long as we're trying to figure out what to do, uh, it's a good discussion to have, and I'm hoping that there is a solution.

[00:40:32] Siobhan: In, in the long term, it needs to be a purely aggregated solution, it needs to be similar to this concept of topics, but it cannot be black box, it cannot be into Google, uh, you know, scope or sphere, because they know too much. So it's like, it almost like you need to pull in another party that gen, that kind of controls that, that's independent.

[00:40:53] Siobhan: I don't see how else that would happen.

[00:40:58] Simon: yeah, uh, it, it, [00:41:00] it, there are so many complicating factors here, just uh, I guess if, if you were to put on a, a, a, you know, a Nostradamus type hat and just try and predict the future, like, where does, where, where does this go, or, or maybe like, what would you, what would the ideal internet, uh, look like in terms of identity, persistence, and, and privacy?

[00:41:16] Simon: What does it look like in 10 years, do you think?

[00:41:19] Siobhan: I think in 10 years, we're going to, it's going to look very similar, except that we're going to be a lot more respectful in the sense of people saying yes or no to what they want them to have to do. I think that's what it's going to come down to. I don't think any of this is a fight against what Google is doing or what, how we're tracking people or anything like that.

[00:41:38] Siobhan: It is just purely a matter of giving control to the person. to decide what they want to do. And I think we will get there. I think because everyone, not everyone, but a lot of the general population that are not marketers or measurement people are getting a better understanding of what's going on.

[00:41:57] Simon: Mm

[00:41:58] Siobhan: Okay, there's a lot more media around it, [00:42:00] there are a lot more articles coming out about the consequences that are happening, etc.

[00:42:03] Siobhan: There are a lot more breaches, so they've become quite public. And, I think that within the next few years or in the next 10 years, it was going to be a lot more control in the user's hand, a lot more choice. And I think that's correct because I am not against any of the actual tracking or, or usage or advertising.

[00:42:23] Siobhan: I just think that the user needs to be able to have the choice to opt into it. And I personally know people who love all these ads. Because that's how they shop. And they're going to say, I want to go for it. And I will never tell them, no, don't. Because that's their choice. But, in 10 years time, I'm hoping that people are educated enough about the subject that they can make that choice.

[00:42:44] Siobhan: Right now, the problem is that they don't know enough to make the choice.

[00:42:49] Simon: right.

[00:42:49] Siobhan: there's no one good enough out there to say it in a way, or explain it in a way that allows them to make that choice. And we're going to get there. And then, that's where I'm hoping we're going to be in 10 years. I don't think technically.[00:43:00] 

[00:43:00] Siobhan: Anything's gonna change other than things are gonna get a lot better probably, but

[00:43:04] Simon: But legislatively, certainly. I think, I think that's the catalyst, right, that we, we sort of have looked at this and said, as an industry, we're not very good at self policing. Um, so we, we really, look, even if 95 percent of us are great at self policing, the, the lone 5 percent is the problem. And, and that ruins, you know, they ruin it for everyone else.

[00:43:23] Simon: And so I do think that, like, legislation has to be where we go. Of course, that's filled with nuance and lobbying and all these things, so I'm, I love that, you know, you're optimistic there, I'm, I'm a little optimistic, I live in California, so at least we have, um, a CCPA, um, but, you know, and, and if you're in most of the United States right now, there's nothing really protecting you, maybe some, like, laws from the 80s that have been randomly applied to the internet, that you're like, okay,

[00:43:46] Siobhan: more protective than your privacy regulation, right? I

[00:43:49] Simon: yeah, yeah,

[00:43:52] Jim: Well, I think we're gonna, we're gonna have to leave it at that 10 year prediction. We'll come back. We'll have you back on the show in 10 years to see

[00:43:58] Simon: yes, well, [00:44:00] you know. Yeah.

[00:44:01] Jim: Um,

[00:44:02] Simon: sooner than that. This has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much.

[00:44:05] Jim: Uh,

[00:44:05] Siobhan: having me.

[00:44:06] Jim: but as we do start to wrap up, we always like to ask our guests Uh, for one incremental insight, uh, whether it's an article or a blog post or a newsletter or something that they can, uh, or our listeners can take away and do right now.

[00:44:24] Jim: So, uh, Siobhan, do you have an incremental insight for our listeners or watchers?

[00:44:28] Siobhan: And like the easy one to say, right, is just think about if you'd like that done to yourself. But, um,

[00:44:34] Jim: mom's test.

[00:44:36] Siobhan: But, uh, no, I thought about this a little bit and I think ultimately what I would say is, especially because it's mostly measurement marketers, it's ask yourself if you really know what data you're collecting and why,

[00:44:49] Simon: Mm.

[00:44:49] Siobhan: go out there and map your data and understand why you are collecting it, what the purpose is.

[00:44:55] Siobhan: And maybe if you can get rid of it, or how long you're hanging on to it, I [00:45:00] think it's surprising how many analysts and measurement marketers I work with who have no idea what they are actually all collecting, don't know how long they're retaining that data for, and don't understand why they might be collecting it.

[00:45:13] Siobhan: And I think if you want to understand a little bit from where I come from, and that's a huge exercise, and it's also going to be extremely insightful to you, and you'll realize very quickly what you don't need, what you need, and what you could potentially do with your data.

[00:45:29] Simon: I love that. Absolutely. Just data hoarding and, and, and being so mindful of that and yeah, embracing the future. Um, well, you know, uh, sorry, Jim, did you, did you want to jump in there?

[00:45:40] Jim: I wanted to jump in, but I'm going to butcher. There was a, there was a Netflix or TV show where someone, this woman would come in and like clean your life. She'd say, if it doesn't give you joy, get rid of it.

[00:45:50] Siobhan: Oh, what's

[00:45:51] Simon: Yeah. KonMari. Tidying up

[00:45:53] Jim: would know it, Simon. Yes. I feel like that's what we need to do as marketers and data analysts.

[00:45:58] Jim: Like, do you [00:46:00] use that data? No, get rid of it.

[00:46:02] Simon: Yeah.

[00:46:03] Jim: It'll bring you joy now.

[00:46:05] Simon: Uh,

[00:46:06] Siobhan: it's going to make things a lot easier if you get rid of everything you don't use. The first time I did it, I was like, Oh my God, I actually understand what's going on now.

[00:46:15] Jim: Yes.

[00:46:16] Simon: I love it. Uh, well, not, not to get too biblical as we think about the, uh, the cookie apocalypse, but, uh, when the, when the revelations of the, uh, impending cookie apocalypse get you down, it's time to measure up.